Did anyone ever hear of litter mate syndrome?

[jellybeanscloset412]

So we adopted two sister puppies. Thinking we were doing a good thing. Then somehow I came across this term and started to investigate it more.

What I have read so far is that you should never ever adopted two puppies at one time, related or otherwise. I didn't know this and no one, not my vet or the rescue mentioned it.
I also read that most rescues, shelters and even good breeders will NOT allow you adopt two puppies.

What happens is the puppies never form a human canine bond because they are too attached to each other. They become untrainable and one can bully the other.

The bigger of our puppies definitely bullies the smaller one. It wasn't this way until about a week or so ago. The bigger puppy is growing more and the smaller is not keeping up. The smaller dog was what we thought of as the alpha dog but that seems to be changing.

They got into their first "real" fight yesterday over food and it was scary. I had to get help to separate them. I know one big mistake we are making is we are crating them together because the foster told us to do that. It's a major no no.

We are getting an additional crate this weekend. Plus I read they should do everything separately until about 1 year old. Of course we have been doing everything together, walks, training, vet visits.

We have had two dogs in the past but they were not puppies together.

Anyone else ever adopt two puppies at once?

[Pantlandia]

I'm not a dog person, but it makes sense that one will be an Alpha, even if they are related. Dogs are pack animals, there has to be a leader. I would definitely put them on different schedules and maybe even limit their together time (if possible) to a few hours a day. I don't know if you can crate them in different rooms, but you can see how that goes.

I could also be way off base, as I am definitely not a dog expert. It just seems the dominant one is going to stunt the submissive one totally if they are kept together all the time.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Thanks Jeremy! Yeah we are going to try that. It's hard because it really is all on me. My kids gelp somewhat. With my kids going back to school in a few weeks I need to get all my "dogs" in a row.

They have to have separate crates for when they get spayed so we figured on that.

It's a shame because the smaller one, Gracie, is so lovable and loves to cuddle. She will also sleep and occupy herself to a point. She is no angel.
The bigger one, Bella, is a pita. Plus she is always bothering Gracie.

[Deleted]

Being thoroughly a cat person i thought from the title this was some syndrome related to cat litter.

I agree with trying to train and do things with them individually so they will develop a bond with you. Or maybe you work with one dog and your dh with the other. Puppy kindergarten or behavior specialist at the vet's office?

[Deleted]

I really wouldn't worry much about it. I've raised many siblings and had zero issues. Just make sure you don't think oh it has a playmate and don't play with them as much as you do a single puppy. If anything that is the mistake people make. People throw out warnings and labels for everything, if you look there are just as many experts saying that this just a crock of bull and there's nothing to it. It's more for working dogs that will be distracted by their litter mate from their job than anything because they won't stay focused on their trainer and their training and it just blew up from there. They do not need to be separated and lonely to be a confident puppy anymore than a child needs to be separated from it's sibling to be confident. Dogs are pack animals, just make sure they know you are in their pack, they are going to play, they are going to get rough and sometimes they are going to fight (though it sounds bad, it's usually just blustering, especially as puppies), anytime you have more than one dog in the house, they are going to figure out who is the dominate one, shouldn't have gotten more than one if you didn't want that, it's just how dogs work.

You didn't need a book or experts to raise your kids, you don't need one to raise your dogs either. They will drive you crazy LOL

[Deleted]

Oh forgot to say, one thing I would do is train them separately, every dog should be trained separately until they learn all their commands, that way you have their full focus. IMO After they learn a task, then you can work on that task together. Like once you teach them each to sit, stay etc, you can work on getting them both sit at the same time, learning to ignore the distraction of each other and stay focused on you but that will be further down the line after they've learned more and you've gotten a stronger bond with them.

As part of training also make sure you introduce them to tons of people and situations over the next couple of months so they get use to all kinds of new things and the separating them for training will help make sure they dont' think they have to be together all the time. Also let one person take one to play in one area while you play in another, they don't have to be together 24/7 but there's no reason to force them apart all the time either. 

[Deleted]

I've never heard of it but I totally believe it's possible. Even with cats.

I REALLY regret adopting Lamington with his mother. I should have left her where she was for a few weeks until he bonded with me.

She was fine, she started pushing him away when he was about 12 weeks old, but he clung to her and still does. Wants affection from her and she pushes him away. It was sad because he never turned to ME for affection. He was always wary.

I finally started a program of hardcore wooing and now, at 12 years old, he thinks I'm quite okay, perhaps even nice to be around. But I will never adopt two together again.

I think Peek's right but I also think most people don't do what she advocates. I think it'd work if they did. Teach them you're the boss and the provider of fun, food and love. Make them individually love YOU. It gives the bullied one someone to go to when she needs a rest, and even the bully might get sick of always being alpha and just want her tummy rubbed.

[Deleted]

First off I have to say that I do know someone that adopted two Golden Retriever littermates and they totally bonded w/each other and not their people. HOWEVER ~ they were left alone most of the day w/just each other, which I think was part of the problem, then to make matters worse their owner (he was like 19) died and his parents and the rest of his family were too busy grieving to really deal with the dogs (not that anyone can blame them).

But I personally have two 2YO dogs right now, they're not littermates but we got them close together ~ we had the first one for maybe two weeks when we got the second. They bonded with each other, but they're more into their people than just each other. One's more independent than the other but I think that's more his breed (he's a cattledog/swissy mix) but the other (Golden Retriever) follows me around, room to room, all day long. He's like a super hairy toddler.
The only two downsides, IMO ~ double the vet bills. I swear for the first year I was at the vet's office weekly for one or the other. Our other issue is that while the Golden is fully potty trained he doesn't bark to let you know he needs to go out b/c the other one barks. So, you have to pay attention, if he leaves the room you're in, chances are that's your clue to take him out. Not sure it has anything to do w/us having two dogs; other than the fact that we always took them out at the same time when they were little.
We also have a friend that got that has two husky littermates and they're pretty much the same, they like each other, but they LOVE their person more. He already had an older dog when he got them as puppies ~ not sure if that affected anything.

[Deleted]

We did crate them separately after the first couple of days after getting #2.
One vet tech did say not to give them any real bones/bully sticks/or other "high value" chews b/c that can cause food aggression/fighting issues. IDK if that's true or not, we bought some in the beginning but stopped b/c one's allergic to beef.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Thanks everyone. Gracie is very affectionate towards us and likes to cuddle and lay on my lap but Bella is more distant. Half the time I think she only does it because of Gracie.

I did hear that getting a third dog will break it all up but that's not happening.

They do get the food aggression if we give them treats. Funny though, the one they really fight about is all vegetarian! We can't give them anymore. I wonder if they would still fight if they knew that.

I figured out pretty quick about the training. They very easily distract each other. I still give them commands when they are together too. Like sit before a treat.

I know the crate thing is crucial so I'm getting one in the next few days.

[labbypaws]

Getting a third dog does nothing more than adding a third dog to the household.

[chapeaunoir]

I'm not sure about dogs, but I've had to train a lot of people lol - YOU are the alpha dog in the pack.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Aug 10, 2017 5:37:10 GMT @digitalninjahighme said:

We did crate them separately after the first couple of days after getting #2.
One vet tech did say not to give them any real bones/bully sticks/or other "high value" chews b/c that can cause food aggression/fighting issues. IDK if that's true or not, we bought some in the beginning but stopped b/c one's allergic to beef.

We got the other crate today. Just wondering if they are near each other?
We are going to put them next to each to start but then move them.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Aug 10, 2017 19:48:06 GMT labbypaws said:

Getting a third dog does nothing more than adding a third dog to the household.

Did you have two puppies at once? I know you have several dogs.

[labbypaws]

Aug 11, 2017 22:12:51 GMT jellybeanscloset412 said:

Aug 10, 2017 19:48:06 GMT labbypaws said:

Getting a third dog does nothing more than adding a third dog to the household.

Did you have two puppies at once? I know you have several dogs.

Closest I have are 6 months apart.  I took each one to puppy training from when I first got them through 12 Sundays of classes.  I had already known to never get 2 at the same time.  I also convinced a Lab friend not to get 2 at the same time.  

The only reason I had 2 that close was I had a down payment on a pup and the entire litter died shortly after birth before they could fight infections.  So I got a pup from one of my other breeders.  Then the breeder for which I had a down payment on had another litter.  I could have gotten a refund but she was a friend and I wanted a chocolate.

[jellybeanscloset412]

They are really good dogs so far. I don't know if it's because they have each other.

If I say go to bed they are right in their crates. They are house broken.
The rough housing has slowed down in the past week or so.

Gracie is very affectionate and loves to lay on my lap. And they are both rather submissive to the humans in the house.

If I didn't read about I wouldn't have even thought it was an issue.

I don't think we could rehome one of them. We are really attached to both of them.

The other crate is here so we'll see how that goes.

[kritter]

Jellybeen, go with what you have going for you with those pups and quit reading stuff by the "experts".

You have two happy dogs that have a great home. They are housebroken, they are obedient considering they are just puppies, and they are loved.

Quit reading and kept on doing what you are doing because they sound like they are progressing like they should.

They are just puppies and they like to play. Sometimes they may get rough but that
can happen. Correct them when they do wrong but don't ever think about rehoming one of them. They are still just puppies.

[Deleted]

We didn't have their crates next to each other, our house is small and has odd shaped rooms so there wasn't anywhere where they'd fit next to each other.

[Deleted]

Oh, I didn't know re-homing was an option. NOOOO, don't do that!

I firmly believe that when you take a furry or feathered friend into your home, that's it. You're committed and anything negative has to be dealt with.

The "negative" in this situation is minor, considering that they're just puppies and can be trained.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Yes MissP, you're right. We feel the same way. I just want happy puppies though and if they needed a new home to be happy, then that's what we would do.But hopefully it all works out.

One more thing about my pups is that they are rescue dogs. They had some level of abuse in the past. I know they were in South Carolina at a high kill shelter. And they had 3 brown brothers.I don't know the whole story and not sure if I want too. That could be why they are so submissive.

So maybe they have the "beggars can't be choosers" mentally in dog terms whatever that is. Not sure. They do seem happy and they are healthy.

They are officially in their own crates, right now. It actually went very smoothly. We took the bottom out of the old one and switched them so technically they each have some of the old crate.

This morning Bella laid on my lap for awhile. So that is a step in the right direction. She is more distant towards us.

[Deleted]

I have two chihuahuas that are not litter mates, but are 1 month apart from different litters. I got them together and they are definitely bonded now. But, they are very affectionate and have formed human bonds, in fact they compete like jealous siblings for human attention. One will push the other one away to get to you so they can stop you from petting the brother.

They do get jealous of each other, mainly the alpha one is the most jealous. I do not put their bowls right near each other when they eat and the alpha male has food issues and will steal from the other one. So, one eats on one side of the kitchen island and the other is out of eyesight on the other side. The alpha male finishes his food in a flash and the gentle one takes his time. They are truly opposites.

The alpha male is Mush, he thinks he is a tough badass dog (he is 5 lbs) he will try to bite (growl hair up and go nuts) large dogs - the then that he seems intelligent. He is also part cat, with powerful hind legs he can jump way too high and he has to be watched. The gentle one is Bugsy, he is sneaky and timid, but he is larger than his brother. Every so often he puts Mush in his place LOL.

They play fight all the time and the winner seems to be whoever can get their mouth open bigger LOL.


I never heard of the syndrome, but I think as long as there is a lot of human interaction and cuddling, etc. it would be hard for them not to form a human bond. I think my boys look at us as their parents and since your girls are babies too I bet they look at you as their new Mom too!

We are raising them as brothers. We expect there will be some bickering and jealousy (sibling rivalry an all), but they do get along and even share a crate with 2 small cat houses inside it, one for each. They swap houses all the time too. They clean each other and there is definitely a bond, in a good way.

[kritter]

Jellybean, it sounds like you have a good grip on the situation and are doing all the right things. They are just puppies and going through puppy stages just like kids and kittens do.

Be firm, be loving, and, again, quit reading all the "expert" stuff.
They don't need a new home to be happy. They are happy where they are right now and are responding to you. Just give them time and age.

[jellybeanscloset412]

Thanks everyone! I feel a little more confident that we did an okay thing.
I walked them separately today and DH played with the other one. It went well. They are really easy to train once I get them alone.

[kritter]

Good job, Jelly. They are lucky lil pups to have found you.

[Deleted]

I was going to say that I try to make sure we do things with them separately, like will take one on a ride to the store and leave the other home or take walks separately. I'm not a dog expert, nor do I play one on TV, but I want them to know that they don't have to be together 24/7 ~ whether they want to be or not.

[Deleted]

My "expert" advice - as the saying goes - as long as they're wiggling their butts when you walk through the door, it's all good.


ETA: unless it's a cat. If a cat is wiggling it's butt, it's up to no good. Run. 

[Deleted]

How are you guys settling in? Is the fighting calming down?

[labbypaws]

How are they doing?

[jellybeanscloset412]

They are doing good. The bigger one, Bella, seems to pick on the smaller one, Gracie. I always separate them if I see it. But Gracie seems to go back for more and will initiate it too. Sometimes it’s hard to tell what’s really going on.

They are good dogs and would be great dogs if it wasn’t for each other. For example, Gracie will jump alot when greeting a human if Bella is around.
They really keep me busy! I love them but they’re alot of work. Thanks for asking.